Proposal to End All Religious Arguments
April 19, 2008 :: General ::
A simple, concise way to end religious arguments, via Kobra’s Corner.
For Christians:
1. America is not a “Christian country.”
First and foremost, 100% of the United States population doesn’t believe in Christianity. Until the day that this statistic is achieved, kindly shut the hell up.
2. The Constitution comes before the Bible.
“I have a problem with people who take the Constitution loosely and the Bible literally.” - Bill Maher
Regardless of what the Bible says, while you live in this life, you will follow the rules of the country you live in. Secular law is sovereign. If you have a problem with this, you’re more than welcome to hurry yourself to the next life so you can follow Biblical law exclusively.
3. Keep your nose out of other peoples’ business!
Simply put, your ethics and political views don’t license you to dictate the personal lives of other people.
If you’re anti-abortion, don’t get an abortion. If you’re opposed to same-sex marriage, don’t marry someone of the same sex. If you don’t want other people to have abortions or same-sex marriages, TOUGH SHIT! It’s their right to do those things; like it or not.
4. Religion is not a basis for enforcing a policy.
This one goes out to a number of political figures (Mike Huckabee, George W. Bush, George H. W. Bush, et al.):
Your personal beliefs, in a democracy or a republic, should never restrict the rights of others. Since we live in the United States, which is a federal constitutional republic, the justification of unconstitutional laws with the religious views of one person is a threat to freedom and should not be allowed.
5. Keep your religion away from the throats of others.
Before you discuss religion with anyone, ask them if they’re interested in hearing your bullshit. If they say, “No,” it doesn’t mean you are authorized to continue forcing your beliefs down their throat. Forcing your beliefs onto others is the equivalent of theological rape.
6. Research unverified claims.
A large majority of Americans would not vote for a qualified Atheist President (link). This is because of an unverified belief that atheists are immoral; which is utterly unacceptable.
Instead of basing your votes on superficial qualifications (religion, gender, political party, race, age, etc.), why not base your vote on something concrete? I’d rather have a competent President than a Christian president of lesser competence; would you disagree?
For Muslims:
1. Stop trying to enforce Sharia law.
As I just finished saying to the Christians, secular law is sovereign. You’re free to follow whatever laws you wish, but don’t force them onto other people. To do so is a violation of their basic human liberties.
2. Stop blaming everything on the Jews.
There are more Muslims than Jews in the world; you can’t blame all of your hardships on them. Shut the fuck up and take responsibility for your own predicaments. (This only really applies to the radicals.)
For the “Church” of Scientology:No compromise for you. You aren’t a religion, you’re a cult. Crash and burn, you fascist bastards!
For Atheists:
1. Let History remain intact.
I am in support of laws preventing new court houses from displaying the Bible’s 10 Commandments, but I am adamantly opposed from removing existing ones. Why?
Two words: Historical value.
2. Unless your rights are being stepped on, shut the fuck up.
If Congress ever passed a law requiring all students to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, then I might relate to removing “Under God” from the oath. Since that is not the case, and you are not required to recite it, stop wasting our time with irrelevant bullshit.
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14 Responses to “Proposal to End All Religious Arguments”
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Some interesting points, but I feel that if you stand for nothing, you fall for anything. With no defining spiritual and moral background, people become complete misguided idiots. Our society is extremely overpopulated with them at this point in time, and I feel a strong correlation between this and people losing touch with their faith. Of course this isn’t true for everyone- some people are smart enough and care enough to LOOK for right and wrong… but most seem to be out for their immediate gratification, at the cost of self and friends/family.
Just .02 of my whole dollar :P
Also, I’d disagree with #4 for Christians. Since morality is a backbone of this faith (as is recognition of immorality that we see in ourselves), we use this as a guiding point for what is right and what is wrong. Thus, to me, it is a very good guide, put in black in white, to what is acceptable and should not be. For Christians, “secular” law should come to mirror reasonable ethics and at least some form law to facilitate honorable society, less the whole society become a cesspool.
As you already know, I’m a Christian. While I don’t try to crap on other people with different beliefs, when it comes time for me to make decisions of my own (like when I vote, for instance) you can bet that I do so according to my conscience, which is very much aligned with my spiritual beliefs. In addition, when asked for my position on topics, I often feel free to share my thoughts… Although I’m sure your intentions here weren’t to discourage either of those things, this tone is quite intolerant.
The Bible instructs me to: 1) Put God’s laws before man’s, but to also obey societal laws when not in conflict with the Bible. 2) Don’t keep the “good news” to myself, but instead go out and share it, and make disciples. 3) Behave according to my Christian beliefs, which would include voting accordingly.
So what is it that you’re more at odds with - the religion itself, or the behavior of people who adhere to its precepts? Or maybe a third category - Hypocrites who don’t really know what being a Christian is all about.
First a response to EF: I’ve found from my personal experience that religion does not equal morality or vice versa. You can raise children to be good, caring people without religion being involved, IMO.
Now I can only speak for myself, but I see that religious people may follow a moral code based on their faith or belief systems, while I, a nonbeliever, choose to follow my moral code (ask me how!) based on my choice to not cause harm to anyone knowingly. Is one better than the other? Not necessarily, though I tend to prefer not causing harm because you care for other people based on their own merit rather than the belief in a deity. However, regardless of the reason, caring for your fellow man is always to be applauded.
Now to AB. I feel that everyone has a right to believe how they please, and even put the information out there as to why they disagree with certain actions. However, I feel that it is intrusive when people attempt to enforce policy based on religious belief.
While this article takes a slightly more biting tone than I would have, I agree with it for the most part.
I was raised in a Christian home, and held those beliefs up until about three years ago, give or take.
So I do not take issue with the religion, or anyones choice to believe in it, but I do take issue with those who use religion as a means to deny others their right to life, love and the pursuit of happiness.
My contention is this, to which I already addressed: You are one of those who can find how to be a productive member of society, whereas most cannot. You walk through life with your eyes and ears open, ready for lessons from life, though maybe in the color of the perception you are open to at the time (like any person is).
However, take someone of a similar belief system, multiply them by five million. You now have five million people who can, more than likely, agree on not a single thing, because their idea of “right” can never match up. In my humble opinion, any time you put the laws and wants of man above God, all you get is utter chaos.
I would also hope that your experience with me would show that Christians DO have morality and spiritual integrity. However, they are human and can succumb to vice just like anyone else.
I’ve always made my own moral code, my own set of beliefs. I took an objective view of life apart from the bible, then matched the two up (life’s lessons and the bible) and, to me, it shows a clear correlation, explaining the wags and woes of the world through a spiritual viewpoint as opposed one comprised from flesh.
Also, I care for people because I feel that love and hate are the only eternal echoes we can cause on earth and believe love to be the only purpose for living. I don’t care much for what lay beyond in an afterlife because I know that being as righteous as I can be is the correct way to be- the reward is itself.
Sorry for being so wordy- and thanks for the responses!!
Unfortunately, my experience with you says nothing about “Christians” being good and moral, only that you personally live by a moral code.
My experience throughout my life with “Christians”, I have to say that many of them were not truly good OR moral people. Rather, they chose to pass judgment on every else’s activities, lives and behaviors, without seeing that this actually caused more harm than minding their own business.
Again, I can’t attest to the validity of the argument that morality has much to do with religion.
Just my personal experience.
And my experience is that the New Testament is full of truths that are easily experienced (for me) by practicing them in interpersonal relationships, and even as a way of life in work and other such aspects.
When I saw how, when intelligently discerned and practiced, it is so wise, practical and builds up everyone involved… well, what can I say, it convinces me again and again every day.
I guess this may be because of my personal viewpoints (which may clash with some other Christians) in that sin is not “punishible by death” (because Christ essentially performed a “heart exchange” with us and took our sins), and instead is mainly a way of saying “Do this, and bad things happen. Maybe not immediately, but eventually, and certainly.”
So all of that is supposed to be a bit of background why I feel that Christianty serves as a very good baseline for today’s society to follow.
However, I also believe that God intends man to have free will as a test of heart and spiritual fortitude… America can reflect this, but it pains me to see the way society is fumbling through the dark, and those who are fumbling are too blind to see that they are!
And we all fumble… You know that I try to be a good person, and routinely mess that up on a regular basis. :)
That viewpoint clashes with most Christians, IMO. You have to adopt a VERY liberal view of Christianity to not believe that the sinful are punished.
The NT is full of good tidbits, but you have to pick and choose, determine what is literal and is not, and live according to what you think is correct. This book is incredibly ancient and not entirely relevant for our times, and certainly not the “infallible” word of God, IMO. I could be wrong, but my personal experience and study has indicated otherwise.
I fully agree with “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” (Luke 6:31) or “Love thy neighbor as thyself” (Mt. 22:39). Those are basic values that people can live by, be they religious or not.
However, if we are to live by those laws, must we not live by the other laws as well? For instance, in Mt. Chap. 5, Jesus states that someone who calls another a “fool”, they are in danger of hell. In the same chapter, he states that if someone is to divorce save for the cause of adultery, they are considered adulterous if they take another spouse. What about if the person is beating you, stealing from you, etc?
I also disapprove of Jesus insisting that we consistently turn the other cheek, give away all our belongings and never retaliate. Loving your neighbor is great, but getting walked on is surely not condoned by a loving god.
These are just a few of the NT “laws” I have a problem with. I can accept some as good advice and guidelines, but some are just fodder for pointless dogma that does not do anyone any good.
Someone could claim to love god with all their heart, and be led by god in all that they do. They may even claim to be led by god to do atrocious things, even to cause harm to others. They may even claim to do these awful things out of love, to save their souls, etc.
All in all, I think that Jesus had some good ideas, and stepped outside of the box of religiosity of the time. I think we can take bits of truth that he emparted and incorporate it into a well rounded world-view. However, I do not think Christianity has goodness and truth wrapped up in a box with a bow on top. I agree with some views, but to swallow it all as truth would make me choke.
I can also agree with the view my Muslim acquaintances have that you should have a deep respect for the elderly and seek them out for wisdom. The Wiccans instill a love of nature, Bhuddists encourage meditating to center yourself and achieve enlightenment. Heck, there are even good things in Scientology.
I have found myself unable to take the good with the bad, the false with the true when it comes to religion. This is why I choose to be an agnostic and an humanist. This leaves me with an open mind for further education and enlightenment, and an open heart for those who deserve compassion and care.
To me, a perfect world would be one where religion is studied as Greek Mythology is studied, that values are encouraged based on a sense of community, and no one lives their lives based on fear and ignorance.
Well said.
Jesus believed that you should “turn the other cheek” instead of fighting fire with fire. “Hate begets hate, love begets love” I believe the saying goes. Do you remember the story when he visited the temple where the gamblers gathered? He most certainly did not turn the other cheek.
I also believe that dying on the cross for our sins is NOT something that should be labeled as a passive act, but further proof that love is the hardest path to travel. Anyone can kill someone else, but can anyone love instead?
Jesus, essentially, performed a heart exchange, in which he took our sinful hearts upon himself, and placed his clean heart into us. We are all in danger of hell- that much is clear. Sin is washed away by following his teachings and otherwise being the best we can be.
Like I said earlier, I follow the proof of christianity- what I can live and find out to coincide with truth in everyday life, I take as proof and fact. The bible is very relevant to today’s times, and I find that many people of today continue to use “it’s not relevant anymore” as a point of contention. I disagree. The bible had to be written for its present, its past, AND its future. Certainly parts of it will make sense more in the past than it does today, but as you said yourself, many points it makes hold much truth.
And if you think Scientology has good points, you may want to check out “Operation Snow White” and “Operation Clambake”, http://www.xenutv.com. What they feed to the masses is far from what they are truly about. http://www.xenu.net and especially: http://www.lermanet.com/scientologynews/penthouse-LRonHubbardJr-interview-1983.htm
As for values being based on a sense of community, I do not believe that, because the majority believes something is correct, that it is right… in fact, I believe that to be a VERY dangerous way of thinking.
Christians should not be living their lives in fear nor ignorance. I know I don’t, and I don’t believe that was a fair statement to make. I left myself open, and continue to do so, to all viewpoints and knowledge- without closing my mind’s doors on important topics.
Your views sometimes remind me of Thelema’s, “do as thou wilt”, which I personally (definitely not reflected by my religion) reference to as the law of hell. Hell, in my mind, is a place for everyone to do their own thing, true free will, instead of God’s will. We’re in the shallow end of the pool now, but if you read up on it…. That’s where I believe this rabbit hole to end.
Sorry I didn’t have time to think this through more- not much time
While I believe that walking away from confrontation is often the right thing to do, I also don’t think that getting walked on is a good policy. If someone steals my coat, I find it more useful to chop off his hands instead of “giving him my cloak also”. Ok, not literally, but allowing people to take advantage of you breeds more dissent than just standing up for yourself.
As far as the story of the moneychangers in the temple, they did not do anything to him personally, he just was offended that they were doing what they were doing in a temple. They did not harm him physically or steal from him personally, therefore, his action was one acted out on principle and not in retaliation for a specific act directed at him. Therefore, this argument is not necessarily relevant.
As far as both “Christ dying for our sins” and for what time period the Bible was written for, those are both moot points for me because I do not have faith that the Bible was divinely inspired or that Jesus was a supernatural being who is the only way to “salvation” of our souls. As I said before, he had a lot of really good ideas, if the current interpretation of the accounts we have are even remotely accurate, but a god? I can’t put much stock in that belief, any more than I can put stock in the possibility that cows are sacred or that in my next life I might be a wombat. I would actually prefer to be a raccoon - the ninjas of the animal kingdom.
Trust me, I think the majority of Scientology is insane, but there are some things that may actually be beneficial. While I don’t think it’s worth facing the cultish, dangerous, and idiotic practices of this organization in order to get the few good things out of it, I can’t deny that they might have a few good ideas. :)
Having values based on a sense of community has nothing to do with majority rule. A “sense of community” means that you care about those in close proximity to you, and in a healthy community environment, ideally, you would learn a lot of good life lessons.
You may not live your life based on fear, but many Christians I know have their beliefs steeped in the idea that by NOT following God’s law, they will be punished. The majority of Fundamental Christians do feel that there is a literal hell, and those who are sinners will be sent there. The fact that you do not believe this, puts you outside the box of the Fundamental/Mainstream whackjob Christians that the article was originally about.
I do feel that “do as thou wilt” is a good mantra to a point. Yes, “do as thou wilt” as long as you do not knowingly, intentionally cause harm to other humans. This idea reflects that of many religions and schools of thought, but mostly, it reflects the idea of humanism.
Thus, I proudly call myself a (secular) humanist.
http://tinyurl.com/5p9rjj
<3
Wow, I had no idea you posted this here. Thanks :D
You’re welcome. :)